Curse

Zinger314 · Nov 26, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Paragons strongly, strongly, need a nerf. Currently, they are making Heroes' Ascent [more of] a joke, and are slowing GvG to a halt. Paragons make the old Ritual Lords appear to be a joke.

The best examples of this are two Paragon elites: [skill=text]"Incoming!"[/skill] and [skill=text]Angelic Bond[/skill]. "Incoming!" is designed to be an anti-spike skill. However, "Incoming" may have too much synergy, considering that many other Paragon skills can greatly fortify the party already. "Incoming" needs a duration nerf and a recharge nerf, so that it's use primarily for spikes only, and not for general protection. Angelic Bond is basically the same as Incoming, except it works on NPCs as well, such as the Guild Lord and Ghostly Hero, making them near indestructable as well. And unlike Life Bond, you can't easily kill the Bonder: That "Bonder" has an upwards of 96 AL. Angelic Bond needs to be less spammable: a 10e casting cost and a 10 second recharge should do it.

Now, for a few other problems:

Low Adrenal Shouts: [skill=text]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill] and [skill=text]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] can be spammed very constantly, giving the Paragon near unlimited Energy. I like the mechanic, but it's a tad abuseable. Upping both to 6 adrenaline should make both of those more reasonable. (and probably a recharge of 10ish seconds on "Watch Yourself!")

Finales: [skill=text]Energizing Finale[/skill] is famous for granting unlimited Energy. That's plainly unbalanced. The other 2 finales suffer from the same abuse. increasing the casting cost of the Finales to 10e (and increasing the recharge of Energizing Finale to 10 seconds, to keep in line witht he other 2 finales) should be quite fitting: Energy is the Paragon's biggest drawback: It's the cure to all its problems.

No Counters: Ritual Lords could be interrupted to hell. Paragons can't. There's only one skill: [skill=text]Vocal Minority[/skill]. But it's still a hex, and it's easily removed, especially since every damn team is running a Divert Hexes. Decreasing the recharge of Vocal Minority to 5 seconds can alleve the Hex Removal, but it's not a permanent fix.

What do you think? Do Paragons need a huge nerf?

TGgold · Nov 26, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I agree on energizing finale. Somethign should be tweaked.

As for the rest, I don't really mind. I think incoming is fine as it is.

Also, distracting shot and diversion are good shutdowns for anyone that's spamming anything. I'm sure there are others that aren't "shout specific" that can easily counter them. Also, the counters that exist totally and utterly decimate any shouter build....

I'd like to see tweaks, just not the ones you posted :P

Sujoy · Nov 26, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

coming from you, this is very serious... I have not played with Paragons lately, these skills are OK in PvE but yup your right, in PvP theyre "too" powerful. I dont know really... anyone found other counters?

Cunning · Nov 26, 2006, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Incoming isn't too bad in my opinion, it can be Diverted, blacked out, "humiliated", etc. However to stop it being spammed, the energy cost could be raised from 5 to 10 or 15, which I think is suitable.

lyra_song · Nov 26, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

we could buff this too:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Roaring_Winds

MegaMouse · Nov 26, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I have been hearing the same thing that Paragons are way too powerful. They need to be nerfed as bad as the Elementalist's are.

Mega Mouse

ericdanie · Nov 26, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

I've just stopped playing HA because of the ridiculousness level it has reached. Now the FOTM are "hold groups". And they do it well, with 2 Paragons and a Warder, it's either gg to who captures first on an altar match, gg to both in relic maps as the desync issues are reaching ridiculous levels too when there's too much bodyblocking around, and gg to annihilation maps as the winner will be the team that does not resign, because a match with a hold group will really hold it forever, or at least for 30 minutes.

kang · Nov 26, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Low Adrenal Shouts: [skill=text]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill] and [skill=text]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] can be spammed very constantly, giving the Paragon near unlimited Energy. I like the mechanic, but it's a tad abuseable. Upping both to 6 adrenaline should make both of those more reasonable. (and probably a recharge of 10ish seconds on "Watch Yourself!")

if you do that to watch yourself, it will be useless to warriors who use it in PvE. It was designed to be able to be kept up on warriors when they are fighting, if you pile a bunch of nerfs on it, then itill be useless.

easier solution: make it that echos and the leadership thing only work on PARAGON shouts, rather than ruining a warrior skill

shardfenix · Nov 26, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Paragons make all pvp (more of) a joke. Infinite energy + damage reduction for the whole team + 80 armor makes them virtually unkillable, not to mention energizing finale, aria of zeal, and zealous anthem. It's a long-range sword-wammo combined with a...something that makes your team invincible and do more damage at the same time. Leadership and the zealous skills need a huge nerf.
It sickened me when I saw people used dual paragons not only in HA, but in GVG as well. Literally half the metagame. Not even monks are that widespread.

Lordhelmos · Nov 26, 2006, 06:51 AM // 06:51

I agree. Paragons are gamebreaking as they are. This class is plain rediculous. Energizing Finale gets my vote as the most broken skill of all, and BiP necros sit under a tombstone because of this. With incoming and angelic bond, Ritualists and Bonders are pretty much extinct. Paragon "holdway" is freaking retarded.

lyra_song · Nov 26, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Aggressive refrain + Go For the Eyes = an infinite IAS (granted you dont get blinded or you run out of targets)

its fun....but damn thats just broken

Rurik Jangeer · Nov 26, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

I havent done too much research on the Paragon in a PvP sense, but I'm throuroughly enjoying it in PvE. I personally would not like to see a nerf, but I respect your opinion and would probably agree to some tweaks here and there after learning a bit more. I'm actually looking forward to trying out the class in a GvG very soon.

EDIT: I guess to balance out the PvP it seems necessary, but I will be very sad the day that they do it.

Carl Butanananowski · Nov 26, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Ive never used Energizing Finale, but I think the recharge should be upped to 10 seconds, as well as the energy to 10.

Curse You · Nov 26, 2006, 07:52 AM // 07:52

I don't have very much experience with HA post Nightfall release, but from what I can see, there are a good number of counters to Paragons.

Roaring Winds
Ulcerous Lungs
Vocal Minority
Well of Silence
Diversion
Distracting Shot
Price of Pride (?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGgold

Also, distracting shot and diversion are good shutdowns for anyone that's spamming anything. I'm sure there are others that aren't "shout specific" that can easily counter them. Also, the counters that exist totally and utterly decimate any shouter build....

So it would reduce them by one in ten? I hate when people misuse decimate.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/decimate

EDIT:
Post beneath mine;

Quote:

Originally Posted by just rude

def Number 5 from the previous link

To severely reduce; to destroy almost completely.

STFU and stay on topic.

One out of six defenitions. In fact if you look at it, you'll see it was used basically one time in literature, and it seems that the author got it's meaning confused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiktionary

The definition reduce by one in ten is occasionally cited as "the correct" definition, with severely reduce considered a "misconception," reading decimate as to reduce to one-tenth rather than by one-tenth.

Also, my post was more on topic than your purely flame post.

just rude · Nov 26, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

So it would reduce them by one in ten? I hate when people misuse decimate.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/decimate

def Number 5 from the previous link

To severely reduce; to destroy almost completely.

STFU and stay on topic.

Shadowfox1125 · Nov 26, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Great, just when a class that I actually like and bother to play comes out, it just has to have some controversy surrounding it.. Though I don't play the Motivation "Restoration" Paragon, I do love the Command Paragon.. Damnit, I just should have waited for the first nerf before going through the storyline with my Paragon..

Oh, and I agree with Kang's point..
It just confuses me.. Why nerf Watch Yourself! when:
1) not every Paragon is a P/W
2) it's a warrior skill, not a paragon skill!

C'mon guys, remember the definition of "paragon"?

Aphraelyn · Nov 26, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

I agree with how the paragon is really overpowered =/

However, I believe ANet tried to do what they did this prophecies this time and not balance out the skills before release (which they did with factions) and the nerf bat will probably be coming soon =P

Those 2 paragons, warders, 2 monk builds are really annoying though...They have absolutely no damage =/

B Ephekt · Nov 26, 2006, 09:29 AM // 09:29

I agree that the cost and recharge times on Incoming and Angelic need to be upped, but the duration on Incoming is fine imo. Your (mis?)conception that it's simply an anti spike skill is irrelevant to this issue.

Energizing needs to be 10 energy and have a recharge of at least 1/2 of it's max duration. Taking it down to 2 energy might be a good idea as well.

Nerfing warrior shouts is a horribly stupid idea, however. I'm not sure why you wouldn't just address the Leadership attribute if you're looking to balance their energy management.

Carth` · Nov 26, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I would prefer if nothing is nerfed. But at the least, I think Incoming and Angelic Bond can be left alone. Incoming lasts 5 seconds (or 7 with high Command), and you want it to last less? 20 second recharge is fine too. And same for Angelic Bond, leave that alone. You're saying nerf Angelic Bond because a paragon is harder to kill than a bonder?

Nerf Watch Yourself, no thanks! That is a great warrior skill, the whole idea behind it is a cheap spammable shout that can keep +20AL on you. No need to harm warriors because of Leadership. Paragons have the same energy as warriors, yet they have many 10+ energy skills that they will be using often. I personally have no problem with a paragon having energy management. If you nerf a paragon's way of getting energy you nerf all paragon builds. I don't think Leadership + cheap shouts is any more overpowered than Expertise, or Soul Reaping in PvE.

You may have a point with Energizing Finale, that is a bit overpowered. Maybe increase the cost to 10 energy.

Mainly I don't want the paragon to go the same way as the ritualist. Take away what makes it good and it isn't useful any more. Of course if something is good it will be used a lot. And if you nerf it, it won't be used any more. I suppose that's what you want though.

What needs to change isn't the skills, it's the FotM copycat cookie cutter way of playing everyone has. But I don't see any way of changing that, so there will always be something that is found to be effective, and there will always be a million people copying it until everyone cries "nerf!".

lilnate22 · Nov 26, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Paragons strongly, strongly, need a nerf. Currently, they are making Heroes' Ascent [more of] a joke, and are slowing GvG to a halt. Paragons make the old Ritual Lords appear to be a joke.

The best examples of this are two Paragon elites: [skill=text]"Incoming!"[/skill] and [skill=text]Angelic Bond[/skill]. "Incoming!" is designed to be an anti-spike skill. However, "Incoming" may have too much synergy, considering that many other Paragon skills can greatly fortify the party already. "Incoming" needs a duration nerf and a recharge nerf, so that it's use primarily for spikes only, and not for general protection. Angelic Bond is basically the same as Incoming, except it works on NPCs as well, such as the Guild Lord and Ghostly Hero, making them near indestructable as well. And unlike Life Bond, you can't easily kill the Bonder: That "Bonder" has an upwards of 96 AL. Angelic Bond needs to be less spammable: a 10e casting cost and a 10 second recharge should do it.

Now, for a few other problems:

Low Adrenal Shouts: [skill=text]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill] and [skill=text]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] can be spammed very constantly, giving the Paragon near unlimited Energy. I like the mechanic, but it's a tad abuseable. Upping both to 6 adrenaline should make both of those more reasonable. (and probably a recharge of 10ish seconds on "Watch Yourself!")

Finales: [skill=text]Energizing Finale[/skill] is famous for granting unlimited Energy. That's plainly unbalanced. The other 2 finales suffer from the same abuse. increasing the casting cost of the Finales to 10e (and increasing the recharge of Energizing Finale to 10 seconds, to keep in line witht he other 2 finales) should be quite fitting: Energy is the Paragon's biggest drawback: It's the cure to all its problems.

No Counters: Ritual Lords could be interrupted to hell. Paragons can't. There's only one skill: [skill=text]Vocal Minority[/skill]. But it's still a hex, and it's easily removed, especially since every damn team is running a Divert Hexes. Decreasing the recharge of Vocal Minority to 5 seconds can alleve the Hex Removal, but it's not a permanent fix.

What do you think? Do Paragons need a huge nerf?

wow..again sum 1 crys...NO they shudnt be nerfed. there are plenty of counters well of silence?
incoming only last 6-7 secs max.. and recharge is 20 secs thats less than 1/2 the recharge.as for WYS and GFTE they are fine. so what if you can spam em? they do nutting but give AL+20 and add sum critical chance.i do think sum skills sould have more enrgy

perhaps this:
incoming 10e
EF10e